Konval Matin, Chief of Staff to Shopify's Chief Product Officer, shares insights on ambiguity and the need to embrace it in today’s workplace.
You’ve probably heard the expression, “Culture eats strategy for breakfast” – but what does that really mean? How can organizations build a culture that empowers their team to embrace innovation and thrive in change?
In the first episode of our Future of Work Series podcast, we sit down with Konval Matin, Chief of Staff to the Chief Product Officer at Shopify. Konval shares her insights on ambiguity and the need to embrace it in today’s workplace. In this episode, you’ll hear about:
About Konval Matin
Konval Matin is Chief of Staff to Shopify's Chief Product Officer (CPO). In addition to acting as a trusted advisor to the CPO, she’s a strategic partner in defining product strategies across the company to meet merchant, partner, and buyer needs both up and down market. Previously, she was Director of Culture and Talent Development, defining and building Shopify’s culture as it scaled from 100 to 4000+ employees across the globe.
Learn More
Visit our website at futureofworkseries.ca.
DOUG:
Welcome to the Future of Work Series presented by Algonquin College's Corporate Learning Centre. I'm your host, Doug Wotherspoon, the Chief Learning Officer of an amazing team of creative professionals that are dedicated to helping individuals and organizations thrive. In this series, we're sharing some fantastic insights to help you optimize both yourself and your organization for the future of work. Today, you're going to hear from Konval Matin, the Chief of Staff to Shopify's Chief Product Officer. Konval's a strategic partner in defining product strategies that meet customer needs, and previously, she was the Director of Culture and Talent Development at Shopify. She'll be sharing her insights on ambiguity and the need to embrace it in today's workplace.
KONVAL:
The first thing is that you need curiosity. It's an absolute prerequisite. When you don't know everything, you have to be ready to learn. And the thing about curiosity is that, in many ways, it's actually an act of bravery. It's pretty scary. You're operating from a place of not knowing, of being open and vulnerable, and more often than not, saying 'I don't know.'
DOUG:
Konval, great presentation today at our Future of Work Speaker Series. Could you dive in a little bit to the topic of ambiguity in the workplace and where it fits in Shopify's culture?
KONVAL:
Yeah, thank you. I would say that commerce is a really interesting space to be in right now. There's a lot of players in this space and it's evolving so much with technology and so there's really no consistency. And it's constantly changing. And for us, we've just chosen to really embrace that and say that it's always going to be fast-moving. And so we need to become an organization that is ready for that. And what that means is that we won't know all the answers; it's going to be a very unknown space at times. But we take it as a positive, and we can start to define it if we're all very curious and eager to learn about what's happening in the world.
DOUG:
Yeah, I mean that sounds like every organization is going through that kind of change and continuous improvement efforts. Walk me through — where does culture fit in creating that comfort with ambiguity?
KONVAL:
Yeah. I talked about this a little bit in the presentation, but culture for me is really the sum of all the beliefs and behaviours of every single person at the organization. And if you think about, for most of us, our people are our biggest spend. Like it's our biggest investment. So the way that they show up to work, their relationship to work, how well they're able to set up to succeed — really, that environment is the culture. And so it's a really huge investment that, if you're mindful about and intentional about, can have huge payoffs in being able to achieve your business goals. And that's kind of how we think about it, as a huge chunk of our team is either on the R and D side – so they're working on all the products that we're putting out for our merchants – or on the support side, who are having daily conversations with our merchants and supporting them in their next stage or evolution of their business.
DOUG:
Walk me through... Because I've seen clear vision, the connecting of vision with values and then the behaviours ultimately that kind of — I think of the definition of culture as the behaviours that happen when nobody is looking, the stuff behind the scenes. So that alignment between vision and values and ultimately then the behaviours — give us some examples of how that's kind of evolved at Shopify over the last number of years.
KONVAL:
Yeah, so I would say our vision has largely stayed the same. So for us, we say that we're, well rather, our mission is to be, to make commerce better for everyone. And we actually broke that down. So we talked about why we chose the word make and better and for everyone. And that's not just our customers or our merchants, but their customers, so the buyers, and then the partners that help us build solutions for our merchants. So there was a lot of thought and intentionality behind that mission statement that we came up with. And then when it comes to our values, it's definitely evolved over time as we've gotten to become a little bit smarter about, you know, here are the things that we're actually doing or the behaviours that we're actually seeing. And for us, we always say, "It's what Shopify values, not Shopify's values." And I know that sounds maybe silly, but it really is What do we value in our folks and what are the behaviours that we see them doing that make them successful at Shopify? And those are what Shopify values. So we've got six of those.
DOUG:
So that nice short mission statement, how long did it take to come up with that? Is that something that just Tobi or one of the founders came up with, or is that an evolution that got you to that? Because I think, you know, from our perspective, language does matter.
KONVAL:
It does, yes. Actually, it's funny, most people that work with me know that I am so particular about language because it really is the filter through which we see the world. And it's important to use the right words. So, funny enough actually, our – he's now CPO, so the person that I work really closely with, but before that he was the CMO – so he's really big on words as well. And I was having a chat with him a long time ago, and he's like the why guy in the room – always like, he will ask why five times. And I don't know what prompted him, because this was before I started working really closely with him, but there was one day where he wrote out an email to his peers, so the entire executive team, and he said, We're here to make commerce better for everyone. And then he explained each word and why he'd chosen it. And I think that was an accumulation of all the conversations that we'd been having over the years. He just sort of took ownership of writing that out. And then we were like, Okay, that's great, so we're going to now internally share that as the thing. And it hasn't changed since then.
DOUG:
How long ago was that?
New Speaker:
I want to say maybe four years ago. Maybe five years ago. Yeah, we didn't have it super clean before that. We had lots of different slogans that have lived on in different times. But it is, I think, some of the work, I talked a little bit about making great decisions quickly at Shopify. And when I worked on the second version and then the third version of the values, I was really mindful about the implication of putting these words out into our environment. Essentially, it takes a lot of effort to get people to believe in and use those words and actually think about them when they're making decisions. It's such a beautiful thing when you've crafted this document. I'd written it so many times, tweaked so many words, and then I would go to another completely different team and I would hear them say it just casually in a sentence and I was like, Ah, this is amazing. But that takes so long to accomplish and through so many different methods that it's not something that I took lightly. So I actually really took a long time. I didn't make that decision as quickly as maybe some of the other decisions because it wasn't as easy to reverse. Once it was out there and people were using it, it's really difficult to get them to forget about it.
DOUG:
Right, right. But I love its simplicity. Make commerce better for everyone. It's passable language. So you got your purpose kind of nailed down. Talk to me about what else you have to nail down. You know, I think you've mentioned a little bit about rituals and the cascadingness of that. Can you talk a little bit about the importance of those rituals?
KONVAL:
Yeah, I think, just like families or sports teams or any kind of community has these things that they do at a certain cadence where they come together, is really, really important. And for us, one of the ones that's so ingrained, that I didn't talk about in the presentation, that I think is kind of interesting is our Town Hall. We do it every single Friday at 4 p.m. And there's no calendar invite, it's just known that on Friday it's Town Hall.
DOUG:
Every single Friday.
KONVAL:
Every single Friday. And we've had that for so many years and I've always been like, Ooh, is there going to be a day where we stop doing it? Because, you know, if you're willing to thrive on change, then there might be a day where you're not doing this anymore. But to me, it's such an important piece of our culture because — so way back in the day, we did have to tell people earlier on in the day. But then as everyone started onboarding, it just — because it happened every week — people just know. We'll send an email saying what's on the agenda in the beginning of the week. But for me the importance of Town Hall wasn't that it was this reoccurring thing that people just knew to show up for. But it was this opportunity for us as a culture team or the HR team to have the space where we could create very purposeful interactions maybe.
So it's kind of like when you break bread at the end of the week. You've maybe talked about a bunch of things, worked on different things, and then you meet up with some folks and then you say, Hey, so I'm working on this problem and I'm a little bit stuck, or, I have this idea... And then it's that moment where someone else is like, Oh, have you thought about this? And those serendipitous conversations have created so much goodness in terms of the ideas and things that we've been able to execute on. It's really hard to quantify those conversations. But that's why we believe — we don't really want to let go of that. And we've even designed our office spaces to have those serendipitous meet-ups in the hallway. And then there's going to be little nooks so you can just go off to the side, if you found someone that you're like, Oh, that's a really cool idea, I hadn't thought about that, or, Neat perspective, or whatever it is.
So that's one ritual. But then we also have, like I said, once a year we'll do the annual summit and everyone knows that it's going to be in the beginning of the year. We're going to kick off the year with a little look back on what we accomplished last year and then mostly talking about what we want to build this year. And people get pretty excited about it. It's a mix of, I mean, being in Canada, it's really cold this time of year. The morale is a little low, so we were strategic about when we chose to do it. But it's a little pick-me-up, a little reminder about who they're building for, so lots of merchant stories that are weaved in throughout the day. And then a bit of a roadmap for the year, for what we're going to be building for our merchants.
DOUG:
You know, correct me if I'm wrong, but the executive team understands the importance of those rituals and embeds those touch-points of building that culture. Ask Me Anything, I think you have. Can you give us a sense of how the executive team has really led that effort?
KONVAL:
Yeah. I honestly always say, I couldn't have done my job without them. That was absolutely paramount. And actually, before I joined, Daniel, who's the cofounder, ran Town Halls before I did. So he would go around to all of the different pods and say, What are you working on? You should share that at Town Hall. So he was running that, and Tobi, you know, it's kind of tough being in the hot seat every so often and having all of your employees ask you literally anything. But he's open to that. He allows people to be curious and ask him whatever they want to be asking him.
So Tobi's really, really involved in our summit, like we're working on that right now. The entire leadership team understands it. And even to the point — I mean, I talked about this. Most companies would say, Oh, our legal team slows us down, or like, They're very cautious. But if anything, our general counsel and our entire legal team is incredible. But I think that had to do with our hiring. We knew that we needed someone that was going to understand what kind of culture we wanted to build. And his team is incredible. They're like, Okay, you need to accomplish this, cool. Let's partner together to get you to do this. But also we want to be aware of all the risks, and make... just making calculated decisions instead of kind of being road blockers.
DOUG:
That's systems thinking, right?
KONVAL:
Yeah.
DOUG:
And I know you're a big believer in systems. What's your definition of systems? And all of these things linking together is obviously a key component.
KONVAL:
Yeah. You know, what's funny is that I didn't know that I was a systems thinker until a year ago, which just sounds insane. [Laughs]
DOUG:
Surprising.
KONVAL:
Cause I always, when people would say something, I would think about all of the domino effects of that decision and how that would hit everything else. And then someone said to me, That's systems thinking, you know that, right? And I was like, Oh. And then I read the book and I was like, Oh my gosh, now I have language to talk about the things that I'm thinking. So it was brilliant. A system really has — there's an action and then there is a domino effect of that action that's been taken, and there needs to be a feedback loop. So there's a lot of related components that work together, and you're hopefully able to achieve a certain goal with that action. And that's —
DOUG:
The objective.
KONVAL:
Yeah.
DOUG:
Yeah. Objectives and then a set of actions that ultimately close the loop.
KONVAL:
Yeah, exactly. So you have... Any system really should ideally have an objective, whether it's to keep things as is, like equilibrium, or to introduce a change. And within that, you'll have some key components that you're able to tweak, and those are your levers that you're playing around with. And that creates this environment that's the space that all of this lives in.
DOUG:
Could you give us some examples of where you've seen employees tap into the courage to be curious and its impact in Shopify's growth and expansion?
KONVAL:
There's this product manager in Toronto, he built this app called Arrive, and it's a way for people to track their packages. And so you buy something online and you're wondering, When is this package going to get to me? And so he's built this tool. I want to say he was almost doing it off the side of his desk in the first little while because we were like, Well, we're not really sure how many people are going to use this. And he was just really keen on working on this problem. And it's kind of crazy because now, I think, in the U.S. it's one of the the top apps that people have downloaded. And people are tracking their packages through it, and it tracks all your packages, whether you bought on a Shopify store or not.
But what I love about Shopify is that that idea came from someone within the org. It wasn't a top-down decision. If anything, actually one of the leaders where it was like, Yeah, I don't know about this. And then he went up on stage this year being like, I was wrong, didn't think that was going to take off, it's huge. And so I love that our culture invites anyone to be able to test an idea. And then if the proof's in the pudding, then, hey cool, let's put some real force behind it.
DOUG:
Yeah, that vulnerability too, even on the leadership side, just humanizes...
KONVAL:
Yeah.
DOUG:
You know, you've mentioned it a couple of times about communications and openness. So how important is transparency for organizations that are facing ambiguity and change?
KONVAL:
Yeah, so it's funny – putting this presentation together for this morning was interesting because I'm obsessed with ambiguity [laughs]. But it made me realize that there's so many decisions that we've made around transparency and communication that have actually allowed us to be nimble and to change as much as we need to as the changes come our way. And so when... We're not really super precise about what we tell people to work on. There's a vision, here's where we'd like to go, please go figure it out. You guys are all smart; I'll get out of your way type thing.
And what that means is that they need to know, because commerce is so interrelated, so what's happening on the payment side versus what's happening on the shipment side, or how someone's tracking their inventory. Those are all for our merchant. If you're a small merchant, you're doing all of those things as one individual. You log on to Shopify and you experience that whole process. But we have different teams working on it. So they need to understand the entire system of commerce to be able to do their job properly.
And we realize that we don't know what they need to know. We can't pretend to say, Hey, you're doing this role so you should have access to only this specific information and everything else is not relevant to you. Because we don't know how people's brains work and what ideas spark new things for them. And so we decided really early on that we wanted to default to open and all teams would share across all platforms. And I mean, we quickly realized that was super overwhelming. And so we now categorize that information. There's a podcast that happens.
There's so much context — actually, context is the biggest word that people use at Shopify. It's like, You have so much context, I really want to pick your brain. And so it's valued because it's this really powerful way to be able to navigate that ambiguity. But it came from a place of, we don't want to tell people how to do their jobs. We don't know what they need or what sparks them. And so it's all here. You pick and choose. And I think that's what allows really, truly great ideas to come from anywhere in the organization.
DOUG:
Yeah. You know, I think there are folks going to be listening that are going to say, What, you don't tell people what to do on a daily basis?
KONVAL:
[Laughs]
DOUG:
And the reality is that the world is changing. We have no idea where it's changing, which way it's going. So the idea of somebody being the smartest person in the room is just such an outdated mode of leadership and of thinking.
KONVAL:
Yeah. I think great leadership has humility, right? I actually have been really fortunate to have exceptional leaders, but there are times where they're like, I don't think about what you think about day to day; tell me what should I do. And that's really empowering, right? Then that motivates me to be like, Okay, that person's going to ask me a question, and I really want to know the answer to it. So by doing that, you're actually empowering and motivating this individual to go out and learn a ton because they're like, They're going to come and ask me a question and I want to know the answer to it. Right? And so everyone has different skillsets and it's the combination of all of that intelligence, that insight, that knowledge that really allows us to be good at, I think, what we do.
DOUG:
We had some conversations earlier around, you know, Shopify is a fast growing company, right? It's only 16 years old. It's now got a million customers using the platform across the country. You now have offices in not just Canada, but in Germany and Singapore. Talk to us a little bit about subcultures and obviously dealing in a diverse multinational organization, you've got to be thinking about things a little bit differently.
KONVAL:
I think culture needs to feel authentic. I think that's really, really important. But that authenticity also needs to know... I talked a lot about this in the presentation, around being grounded in who you are. And I think those become our non-negotiables. So no matter what country we're in, what culture we're in, everyone knows that we are here to make commerce better for everyone and that we want to fight for the small merchants. Most companies want to move upmarket and they're like, Well, there's more money there. But it's like, no, it's in our DNA to help people get started and to gain independence and to start their own business. And so that's the part that we're never going to let go of. If anything, we really want to focus on that. And so this is communicated widely and deeply through the recruiting process, through the onboarding process and most communications that we put out, most rituals. There's elements of this that they are reminded of all the time. And then you know, we've got our values around, we measure people based on their impact. How well did you perform? What are the results of something that you did? Did you work on the right thing? Because some people, they're like, I'm doing so well. It's like, yeah, but that's not of value, you need to be doing —
DOUG:
That's not in the areas of strategic importance.
KONVAL:
Yeah, exactly. And so I think for us, those are the things that were absolutely kind of non-negotiables for us, no matter what country we're in. But anything other than that, as long as, like I said, people are treating each other with respect, assume positive intent, they put the company first and not just their team or their office or their culture... And that's where I think the rules of engagement kind of counterbalance the values. Because here's what we say: These are the most ideal traits that we want to see from you and our values, like be impactful and be a constant learner and thrive on change. And then we've got this counterbalance on the other side of our rules of engagement, which essentially say, Please do not do this because it's not tolerated. And so when you have those two, everything else is kind of fair game.
DOUG:
Yeah, you've got a clear road to follow, so to speak. You've got purpose clearly identified, easily passable in language. You're giving people the flexibility to ultimately jump in where they think they're best suited to jump in. And yet you have this kind of code. Walk me through the commitment to values on the one side, and the rules of engagement. It's a really interesting kind of duopoly of roles there. Walk us through that.
KONVAL:
Yeah, so I would say that our values are behaviours that we've seen in people that are really successful at Shopify. So they're more of the, I would say, positives. Some examples would be: be impactful, be a constant learner, be merchant-obsessed, thrive on change. And those are some of the things that we really want to see people doing on a daily, weekly basis in the way they think about work, and the way that they show up with each other, and how they think about the decisions that they're making.
On the other side, we have our rules of engagement, which are more guardrails around things that we don't want to see. And so we don't want people to always put their teams first over the company. And so we say, put the company first, not your team. Some people have self-interest and they're like, Well, I really got to make sure that this product line or this group of people are being looked after. But it's like, we're all here in the service of making commerce better for everyone, and so do what's best for the company, and sometimes those two can be at odds. We've also got Have positive intent. And so sometimes we noticed behaviours where people were just not giving each other the benefit of the doubt. And so we put that rule of engagement in place to say, everyone here is working towards the same mission, we're all on one team, so start from a base of having positive intent. And then you can get curious; maybe they don't have positive intent. But assume that first and don't assume the opposite.
DOUG:
So the dos and the don'ts kind of create the guardrails for the behaviours that you're expecting.
KONVAL:
Yeah. Because, like I said earlier, we're not telling everyone, here's your job and here's how to do it, we give these guardrails to say, this is what's acceptable, these are the desired behaviours and this is what's unacceptable, essentially.
DOUG:
Right. Including Don't be an asshole.
KONVAL:
Don't be an asshole. [Laughs].
DOUG:
I love the bluntness of it. But again, language matters, right? You get a point across by being kind of direct.
KONVAL:
Yeah. [Laughs]
DOUG:
In a fun way. [Laughs]. Excellent. So what does learning look like then at Shopify? Because obviously you've got lots of folks, fast-changing organization. Talk me through a little bit about the commitment to learning at Shopify.
KONVAL:
So we've got such a whole gamut of perks and benefits around that. I'll talk about some of the more unique programs. So obviously we've got the learning and development team. They put out lots of trainings for whether you're a new hire, whether you're first-time lead, there's lots of curriculum for that. But then I would say two of the more unique things are: one, Tobi has these books. He's an avid reader, and —
DOUG:
There's a book club? There's a reading list?
KONVAL:
Well, we called it the Book Bar, and it's a physical Book Bar in every office that has basically books that he's chosen. Of course you can recommend them to him, but he sort of vets them. And they're great. I picked up a book early in my Shopify career called The Power of Quiet. It was about introverts. And that book really changed my perspective on culture because I was more extroverted, and so I didn't quite understand why people just didn't want to talk. [Laughs]. And I was trying to build a culture and community and I was like, Why don't they want to talk? And reading that book made me realize that they want to engage in a very different way. And it was hugely helpful in the role of culture.
So the books are really pivotal — and they range so broad. And I think we talk about this being a T-shaped individual. And so you have this kind of breadth, but then you go really deep on this one topic and area. And so the Book Bar is actually quite reflective of that. There are very few coding or technology books. They're more like philosophy and life and business. So there's that one example of something that we do to encourage people to learn. So anyone can pick up a book, return it when they're done. And there are Slack channels so they can talk about it and get together if they'd like.
And then the other thing that honestly personally has benefited me immensely, and I think the entire leadership team, is we have full-time permanent staff that are coaches at Shopify. And most people, especially director and above, you have a dedicated coach that you work with. And then they've also created a program for anyone in the organization to book a 30-minute slot. And so, when you're going through immense change and you're growing personally and you're developing professionally, you need that support to help — someone to help guide you through that. And it was probably the smartest decision, I think one of the smartest decisions, that Shopify has ever made internally for helping through this crazy ride.
DOUG:
Yeah. It's funny because I often akin it to sports teams. Sports teams spend a huge amount of money on coaching. They spend a huge amount of money and time and effort on practicing. And then they go out and play.
KONVAL:
Yeah.
DOUG:
Whereas in the world of regular work, you're just supposed to go out and play, go out and work. And without any of the benefits of that practice, without the benefits of —
KONVAL:
Feedback.
DOUG:
Feedback, video replays...
KONVAL:
Yeah, yeah. [Laughs].
DOUG:
And yet we think people are going to evolve and get better —
KONVAL:
Without that support.
KONVAL:
If all they're doing is on the field all the time. So finding the time to get off the field — quiet time, time to learn.
KONVAL:
Yup. It's really about creating that space to dissect. And, actually, it's funny that you brought up the sports team because we often said earlier on, like, We're not a family, we're a sports team. Because in a family, when someone doesn't perform, they're still a part of your family. [Laughs]. But a sports team — everyone has a role to play and we all have to perform.
DOUG:
Right.
KONVAL:
And that was a really important distinction because it can often feel like a family. You work so closely with them, and I feel like everyone is so brilliant and you just become friends with them and spend time with them. But it is, at the end of the day — we're here to work on this mission.
DOUG:
Yeah. That's interesting, I've never thought of that before. And if you keep going with the sports analogy here, I mean, the reality is that there's a head coach and there are assistant coaches, and that's your leadership group. Their job — full time job — in addition to setting the strategy is actually coaching. It's not about doing. They don't go out on the field. And yet so many times, the way we hire a manager or a director is all about their technical expertise previously. And oftentimes you don't have that managerial expertise. So that coaching kind of fills that gap.
KONVAL:
It's like a double-edged sword, because people get promoted for the things that they're really good at, but then as you move up, you stop doing the things that you were promoted for. But I've also found that people that have done the job before tend to be better managers in my opinion, because they know what goes into doing the job. And so they can provide better insight, provide better feedback, and in some ways double-check the work and give really good, insightful feedback on what they're doing. So yeah, people have to want to be a manager. Management's probably one of the most difficult things to do. [Laughs].
DOUG:
[Laughs] So you know, what shift or change do you think workplaces, not just at Shopify but across the board, should really be thinking about for the next decade ahead? Is there anything that you think sticks out in your mind?
KONVAL:
You know, I think... I know you're asking about the future, but I feel like this is a constant and it's probably always been a constant in the past. And when I was in the culture space, people would say, Oh, the millennials, they really like this. They really like having freedom and autonomy. And I was like, No. I actually completely disagree. A human, no matter what age group they're in or what their background is, everyone wants to be treated with respect. And if they're intelligent, they love to have the runway to do what they'd like to do. And so, to me, you have to know your core principles of — humans are just humans no matter where you go.
DOUG:
Well, it's a humanistic approach to leadership.
KONVAL:
Yeah. And so, focus on that. If there's new tools and trends and technologies, just be attuned to the workforce that you have and what's important to them. And if you treat them with respect, with dignity, like adults, where they have the choice to make decisions and have ideas and it's a place to do their best work, they will do it. I think most people, we spend so much time at work. Who doesn't want to enjoy their job? [Laughs]
DOUG:
Hear hear.
KONVAL:
Right? So I think people want to do good work. That's where the having positive intent is really important. Listen to them. I mean, I know that's not really answering your question, but I just think that's so pivotal and you need to get those things right more than anything else.
DOUG:
Well, that comes back to no judgment, and fail fast, and be okay with failure, and creating... Because you're talking about pivoting on a regular basis.
KONVAL:
Exactly. It's all just going to change, right? There's going to be a trend of everyone wanting to work from home and then they're going to be like, No, I feel disconnected, I want to get back in the office. Or I want to do this part-time thing. And then there's — again, I'm a systems thinker, so I'm like, Okay, then you've got all this real estate and then what are you going to do with the real estate? There's just so many effects of trying these experiments. So find nimble ways to experiment.
But I talked about making great decisions quickly, and two of the things that we talk about is how easy is it to reverse a decision. So if it's super reversible, and quickly, be comfortable with trying it out and then undo it if it doesn't work. But again, as the person making the decision, you have to be comfortable with that. And then you have to tell everyone else that, Hey, we make a lot of decisions here that just go all over the place. And that's what this place is about. So you're signing up for this. And I think transparency again is so key. If people think that they're coming to a steady state and then it's not steady, they'll be disappointed.
DOUG:
So I'm going to switch things up and maybe go to a little bit of a quick-fire approach.
KONVAL:
Okay. [Laughs].
DOUG:
Name a book that's inspired you recently.
KONVAL:
Ooh. Yeah. So this book, it's so short and it's so easy to read. I love science that is approachable. And it's — I can't remember the name of the author, but it's called Happy Chemicals. And I read that book also earlier on, when I started on the culture journey, and it just made me realize all of the chemical reactions that are happening in our body. Like, in a lot of ways, we're just advanced chimps with fancy phones, right?
DOUG:
[Laughs].
KONVAL:
[Laughs] And I know some people don't like to think of us that way, but we are mammals and we're a species. And so when someone gives you awful feedback and you think you're going to lose your job, the physical, emotional, chemical reaction that you're having in your body would have been the same as if a bear crept up on you. And so, though we don't have to worry about those fears anymore, but this feels like, This is my livelihood, this is how I provide for my family and that could be taken away from me. And so when people react in such visceral ways, there's something going on inside of them.
DOUG:
Well it's our fight or flight tendency, right?
KONVAL:
Yeah. And I think, again, if you can understand the subjects that you're working with, then you have a better understanding of how to approach it. And so once I started to understand, Oh, this is why people react this way, it's like, okay, well when it comes to comp, it's going to get emotional, it's going to get really heavy. This is why performance management is so key. Belonging is so, so important. We are, you know, a group species. So if you come at it from that scientific psychological perspective, it becomes very clear. It's no longer a mystery.
DOUG:
Cool. Name me somebody who's inspired you, helped you on your career, and what advice did they give you that really resonates with you today?
KONVAL:
Ooh, that's a good one. So my previous lead, I worked really closely with her. She's the Chief Talent Officer. I talked about this earlier, but I have a lot of confidence. Just didn't know what I was doing, you know, I was making it up as I went.
DOUG:
I find that hard to believe.
KONVAL:
[Laughs] No, I was just like, I don't know what to do. But she consistently championed me and made me realize that my opinion and my perspective were important to bring to the table, and would often turn to me when we were in meetings. It was these gestures that she did on a regular basis, like, Oh, I think Konval has something to say. When she couldn't make it, she would send me instead of her. She really created this path for me to to go in. And I know she would sit here and say, You worked for it, you earned it. Which is why I love her so much. But it's so hard to find that type of championship within the org, but when you do, and if you're willing to put in the work and step up to the challenge...
When I pivoted from culture to product, she was huge in that. She actually suggested that maybe I try this. And I was like, Oh no, I'm not technical. I know nothing about product, I can't do that. And she was like, I don't know, maybe you should have a chat. So she was sort of always nudging me along the way. But I'm lucky that my current lead is always like, Okay, so what's next? And I think it's that human element, if you can get to know each other and say, Hey, I've noticed you're really good at this, and, You don't seem to really enjoy that. Shopify has been — I've just been fortunate to have that here quite a bit. And even before Shopify actually, I have to say.
DOUG:
Cool. Is that Brittany?
KONVAL:
Yes. Oh, you know Brittany! Yeah, Brit Forsyth. Yeah, she's awesome.
DOUG:
Yeah. It's kind of cool when you have that – just somebody behind you. And it's a safe zone, and everybody needs one of those at work and in life.
KONVAL:
Yeah. And it's been my personal mission to do that for others in the org. I want to pass that on. And there's a few people that I'm like, Oh, I see so much potential, just behind the scenes.
DOUG:
So if you could give a piece of advice to the 20-year-old you... I know, that's not very long ago, mind you.
KONVAL:
[Laughs]
DOUG:
But if you could give that piece of advice to somebody who's just entering the workforce now, what would it be?
KONVAL:
Yeah, so I had really high expectations of myself. Like I needed everything to be very top notch. And it wasn't until recently that I started to see behind the scenes, like no one has it together. No one knows what they're doing. And —
DOUG:
We're all faking it till we make it.
KONVAL:
Yeah. And it felt like, huh, my shoulders kind of dropped. And I was like, You know what? It's all good. We're all just trying to figure it out together and that's perfectly fine. So I think that's what I would say. It's okay if you don't know, and it's okay if you don't show up in the way that you would like to. Everyone has their moments.
DOUG:
We're all human.
KONVAL:
Yeah.
DOUG:
Thank you very much. Much appreciated.
KONVAL:
Thank you for having me.
DOUG:
Well, that's it for this episode of the Future of Work Series. Let's keep the conversation going. Follow us on social media and learn about our events at futureofworkseries.ca. I'm Doug Wotherspoon. Thanks for joining us.